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100786-itemization-and-stats-in-wildstar-whats-being-done-about-it-page-4
Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4 Content What about the general feeling that there's really no point to running adventures/dungeons? Adventures/Dungeons may be the end game for many folks (who don't want to/can't raid). If there are not carrots for running adventures and dungeons, they will feel less driven to play the content. Personally, I think I'd like to see something drop after killing Stormtalon (for example) that feels like "wow, I just did something really cool!". He's a challenging enough encounter that there should be a reward. I'm not saying it has to be purple- but if it's not better than something I can get off the AH for < 1 Plat, it's a little underwhelming. (I'm saying this as one who likes the change that purples are not guaranteed for gold- at least in adventures). | |} ---- No. With the amount of time you guys REQUIRE us to invest in crafting, it should ALWAYS happen in Veterans. How many days vs how many runs? Someone forgot to compare time sinks when they added research. You dropped the ball, hard. Admit it and correct it properly. No more band-aid fixes. | |} ---- Nice. I don't really care if veteran-tier crafted items are ever better than veteran-tier dungeon loot... just that they are comparable. | |} ---- Because running dungeons for days on end for an item is not a time sink? Fixing the loot system and item system is not killing crafting. It is making all of it progressive and work together. | |} ---- Not sure how else to say it - it's rng because their design calls for rng. That's all you need to know - it's how the product was designed. Have you ever been on a product team before? Decisions are made, designs are created, and specifications are written. Then, through real-world usage -- in the form of data, or othewrwise -- you can iterate on those designs. You can start identifying trends and patterns and use that as one source to inform how to improve or change your product. It's pretty hard to release a perfect product right out of the gate without real-world data. | |} ---- Doing the crafting is much more of a time sink. And money sink. And material sink. | |} ---- Just going to bump this again: You understand that 20 plat on a ~20g item means he acquired the item 100 times. 100 times and he settled with pretty bad slots (but 4x). This is an item you RIGHT CLICK to acquire. Imagine if this was an item you could only acquire once a week in a raid, if it dropped at all. This is the equivalent of getting the same item every week, with no competition on rolls, FOR TWO YEARS. IT WAS STILL CRAP RNG. | |} ---- You understand that rune counts are going to be fixed, eliminating a major part of the bad luck RNG he was facing. And that rune slot options are being expanded, so that he wouldn't immediately throw out anything with Earth. And that stats are being rebalanced, so that Assault Power, Support Power, and other secondary stats aren't the run away favorites. And that rune sets are being improved, so you actually have a choice between an AP/SP/main stat rune or a set rune. | |} ---- I just hope this happens sooner rather than later. | |} ---- That's how I feel about all of this. The fixes sound like the right idea, but until they happen we've got to deal with the system as it is. | |} ---- Again you can't explain why it wouldn't work without it making this part of your post even more useless than the rest of it if that is even possible. Have you ever provided a service before? Decision are made, those decisions cost or earn you money. Paychecks or terminations papers are written. ( I am having fun with this :D) Then through a process called beta wherein real world usage data is obtained, your playerbase tells you exactly how high you are. You brush this off even though it can improve and change your product so you don't get *cupcake*ed on at launch. It's pretty hard to listen to your players tell you things since beta when your're busy posting memes in response to people doing your job. Fish. Barrel. *BANG* | |} ---- This is laughable. Crafting consists of doing your data fragment quest and ignoring it until you want to craft 100 of something hoping for one with good slots. When you actually want to craft them it can be tedious, but comparing it to chaining dungeon runs or raiding from a difficulty perspective is laughable. There is nothing, I repeat nothing, about crafting that is remotely difficult. I have two master crafters and I spend maybe 10 minutes a day on it and you are not a better crafter than me. I can make the same stuff with the same stats in the same number of attempts you can. There are even addons that allow you to make 20 of an item at a time and go watch tv. This concept that crafters "work" and "deserve" to be able to make competitive gear is hilarious to me. This isn't Ultima. you don't spend 30 minutes naked drop-walking your ore back to a forge hoping not to be PK'd. You stand there and hit combine with materials you bought off the CX 10 meters away. Cry me a river. | |} ---- The language in the OP makes it very clear that this isn't some fear-weather change to be expected within the next month. This is a radical re-design of a huge part of itemization. I wouldn't expect this change until November. And I definitely won't be staying around that long anyways. This game had its chance. | |} ---- My money is on Drop 3, along with Expert Technologist Research. Partly because they are talking about it now, which means it is in a good enough place design wise to be talked about. Mostly because they'd want to get the rune slot and any crafting changes in place before purple hybrid power cores are released into the wild, and there are three new levels of hybrid power core in research that might be the purple cores according to the pictures released so far. | |} ---- I'll still be here. I just want to know where to prioritize my time. No point gathering crafting mats if the change is just around the corner. If the change is a ways off, however, it's a good idea to carry on until the same until it's closer. | |} ---- Mhm, I agree 100% - looks like Carbine is on the right track to making some changes but keeping crafting relevant. Rune slots and AP/SP balance with other stats are the real issue here. | |} ---- Thanks, but surely by your own admission then the fact that the pre-raid BIS lists are crafted items all over the place and epic BoEs means that the veteran loot is garbage as well? Quoting just some of my post out of context isn't a very nice thing to do. People who are not interested in 40man raiding (because its a proven bad system) want some progression content to do as well. We were told there would be difficult dungeons, and we have them. Where is the reward to match the difficulty? It doesn't sometimes happen in dungeons, it happens all the time. I'm not saying the BiS pre raid lists out there are 100% accurate, but they are filled with craftables with some minor epic upgrades, usually just because they have more potential rune slots or straight up AP/SP on them. (also a bad thing) As I said, I'm not sure why you are singling out raid gear. The dungeon loot lists are terrible too. Mostly because we don't care about anything except ways to get more AP. If you want to fix the problem, i'd probably start there | |} ---- I've never been a fan of "item X only drops off of boss Y". It is rather demoralizing to a lot of raiders if the boss that has the item they want is at the end (or the very start) of the raid. Either they have to spend the next few hours of the raid without the drop they came for, or they have to stress whether the raid will progress far enough in to get a chance at the drop they want. Flavor items are fine to drop off of specific bosses - meaning items that have identical stats to another drop, but have a unique look. But most loot items should be available from 2-3 other bosses in the zone (or even as rare drops off of "trash" mobs). So you might not get the drop from boss Y, instead to have it drop off of boss Z instead. | |} ---- I hope you're giving a bit of thought to way higher rune counts, but reduced rune effects across the board. If instead of Green -> 1 and Blue -> 2 we had Green -> 2 and Blue -> 4, but runes were all half power, it should end up about the same but with the advantage of more gold sinks and no OP legacy blues :D Sets would need to change too presumably but I think that's already on your radar anyway /shrug | |} ---- ---- They just said they're fixing rune counts and making AP less OP. Nowhere did they mention they're adjusting rune set bonuses, so the fact that I can't get Firestarter/Spellweaver on my esper in anything but fire slots means the change is worthless to me. Getting that 12/12 bonus is even more important than the stats you can slot in the runes, and the fact remains that earth runes have set bonuses completely irrelevant to magic DPS. Spellweaver is on Fire, Water, and Life. For Water and Life to even be worth it (that means getting ginesse and crit hit close in benefit to AP), you'd have to nerf AP by a good amount, and I doubt AP won't still be optimal over the other stats. So as an Esper having more runeslots means nothing if those runeslots are not fire/fusion. | |} ---- Hopefully they up the ratio's on crit severity. You know... make it worthwhile. So far base is around 170% and if you stack FULL secondary crit hit/crit severity (moxie for SS, 1680 total) you might get 200%. Maybe. | |} ---- These are specific items with just straight up wrong stats for the equippable classes. | |} ---- He's said a lot of things in this topic, so I understand losing track. With regards to rune sets and rune desirability, these quotes stand out: Hmm, probably won't do #1. Might expand a few more stats and options into more Rune elements but likely not all stats to all elements. Definitely looking at doing the second part of #2. (Should note that Grit/Health also has this issue. Health is always better than Grit and it shouldn't be.) Definitely looking at doing #3. (I'm actually putting together some new Rune Sets for a future patch right now, and we're taking a much harder look at their benefits and power.) Also running an audit on the entire Rune system and finding some very ... interesting things. 1) There are not enough options for Air, Earth and Water runes. Will have to look at Fire after the AP/SP changes, I think the AP runes might be carrying Fire a little bit. 2) There are not enough options for Brutality, Finesse, Moxie, Deflect, Deflect Critical, Health, Armor, and Shield Capacity runes. 3) Resist runes make me sad. |} A guy can hope, can't he? | |} ---- In honor of WildStar's recent attempt to be more transparent with the community, how about before posting anymore possible major changes to systems that are not working as intended (this list just seems to be growing now doesn't it. Feels more like a subscription-based Beta test right now), only post when specifics are exact? There was so much outrage with the medal/loot system change because of a lack of specific information. I fear there will be a lot of outrage if any other major changes occur without specifics being explained clear and concise for the community to understand. Currently, it is becoming a struggle as a GM with participation of not only casuals but also hardcore players and officers drops. Several members have decided to take the next month or so off until they feel the reward of end-game content is worthy of the current time commitment required. Some may not even come back. | |} ---- ---- ---- Stat weights are under review as well. This has been stated already. | |} ---- You got a source for that? I've read all of j-tal's posts and the closest I've seen is that they're addressing the brutality(or other ap stat)/ap discrepancy and the grit/health discrepancies. I've seen no mention of balancing the primary and secondary stats. I have a sneaking suspicion they never intended for the secondary stats to be as powerful(hence calling them secondary), but if that is the case it would be nice to see confirmation, and to know what their plans for them are. | |} ---- I am really happy you're coming here to talk to us and sound things out. That communication and feedback is 100% wanted from players. (tell your co-workers to put on their flame suits and join you here) :D | |} ---- That's basically all the stats considering each of the classes collectively use all of the stats for either AP, SP or health. Espers use Moxie for AP, Engineers and Spell Slingers use Finesse, etc. | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- RNG is part of the itemization and progression design, I don't see any way to remove it. Or any reason. Just stop expecting to have such specific control over your itemization and instead min/max within what you have. Which by the way you might want to look at your 5% assumption. | |} ---- SHUT UP AND COLOR!! The subs will talk eventually. I wonder what you will say then? I know what I will say-I told you so. The day will be gloooorious. See you there. | |} ---- To much RNG, like W* has right now, is a very bad system. They need to tone down rune types. Make dps weapons give dps rune slots, instead of slots that benefit healers more.(etc with tank and dps weapons). Same goes for Dps/Tank/healer gear. | |} ---- ---- Do you mind if I ask how you are doing that math? How did you validate it? | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- If their communication wasn't so horrible they would have far less flames. Here's a hint: hire at least one person full time to communicate to the players on their own forums. If they're a good employee a lot of complaints will go away! Granted, they have to be able to tell the truth. Currently carbine is promising the world with zero deadlines and releasing patches shortly after sub day. This is a horrible development cycle designed to wring the most out of a failing game. They need to set deadlines, announce these deadlines and release them on time as described. It's really that simple. Pull out all the stops. Hire new people, fire a lot of the current ones. The direction wildstar has been on and will be on unless things change is utter death in 2-3 months. | |} ---- ---- Thanks J-Tal, I really appreciate your feedback on the issue. As for the matter in hand: I think item randomization works great in a game like Bordelands or Diablo, but I really don't like it in a MMORPG, for the simple fact that this is a much more competitive game. On Borderlands, Diablo, or any other non-MMO really, people don't care as near as much about balance, simply because what other people do in their games don't affect you as much. Too much RNG like we have now makes the game feel unbalanced. I also disagree that random itemization feels rewarding when you get a good item. It just feels punishing when you don't, which can happen a lot if you are unlucky. Finally, random is luck. Most of the time, it doesn't involve any skill whatsoever. You can't do anything as a player to be more lucky, no matter how good you are. The only thing you can do is try again, and even that doesn't guarantee anything. In the end, it doesn't feel rewarding. | |} ---- I just looked up what Ayestes had for stat weights for spellslinger for what numbers they had from their stat testing. Well if you go by stat weights Boots of the Dagun-rider have 28 brut 76 finess 57 moxie 28 strike through Convert that to finess 23.41+76+37.88+23.31= 160 finess 4 ap runes adds 16+13+11+9 ap or 51 finess (if your milestone capped its more like 100 finess instead) It could roll 2 earth slots which translates to about 4 finess. So one of the most efficently itemized purples still gets 25% of its stats from runes and the diffrence of the bonus given by runes is 1275% If it was an item that had crit severity taking up part of its item budget and you had enough mainstat to get milestones. Yes more than 50% of what the stats give you for dps comes for runes. This is not even counting rune sets. So for poorly itemized gear, aka most of the drops, yes runeslots can make them 100% better. Meh forgot the earth could get 2 crit severity its 5 finess total. so 1020% diffrence. | |} ---- This is thus far the only place you've mentioned changing stating on raid loot. But at least in theory you agree that raid loot should be better. There is more than just rune slots to a lot of the problems. It's been mentioned several times that because 1 stat is so much more valuable than any other to DPS players, and crafted gear allots players to put all of an item's budget into 1 stat, crafted gear with a lower budget can often be better than dropped gear with a substantially higher budget. This is the case even with correctly stated gear in raids. So my question now is do you have any specifics on how you intend to handle this? Thus far most of your comments have been directed towards rune changes. The suggestion I've seen the most times may be beyond your team and would involve changing what the stats provide players. Such as having a primary stat for acquiring the best ratio on AP/SP then the secondary 2 stats also providing AP/Sp but at a lower ratio than the primary. That makes a whole lot of sense because then gear that puts a lot of its budget to the secondary stats gets good value from those stats as well. | |} ---- ---- The only problem I see here is that like Seraph said, leveling players replace gear at a very fast rate. Cheap runes sounds like a great fix, until you realize that you have to stop what you're doing, go back to Thayd, buy and install the runes and then come back and pick up where you left off. Even if you're not doing it every time you get an upgrade, it's still a pain in the arse that many players will forego. The only way around this would be to have a Runecrafting station right next to the Crafting station in each zone. | |} ---- ---- Soon™ | |} ---- ---- ---- Lance the boil, drain the pus. | |} ----